Health Care reform Bill... you opinions?

[lilley_1]

I really didn't want to debate but I don't have better things to do as Spring Break is on Friday. Perhaps I could find a way to make this part of my microeconomics paper ( I still need a topic aah).

 

I will make an argument based on my own system, if the arguments you guys are making/I'm countering are based on stuff that is universal to all systems. It doesn't matter if the system is called medicare or iCare or iDont or if it is funded by taxes or robbing the rich or by illegal arms trades from the black budget. I have read up on the bill before posting in this thread, and I was actually surprised by this(and not in the pleasant way), but the arguments against the bill are about things that are found all over the world.

 

The senate bill is not universal healthcare. That was what I was getting at. Its only supposed to cover about 97% of the population. There is no public option and it provides subsidizes for people to get private insurance. Then there is tort reform (which is definitely needed), covering for pre-existing conditions etc. which is the stuff that is more common across the world. The basis of the bill , however, is not Universal Healthcare as that type of system would never get passed by the senate as the senate is more moderate than the House. Its overall somewhat in the middle between current American system and the European/Canadian system but that could change with the fixes they are going to try to pass with reconciliation.

 

I've already said that the system can be abused, and so have a few others. It's common knowledge, because we are experiencing it every day. (Yes, I will make an argument based on my country's own system.) Do you really think that's a valid reason to forget the whole system? How many poor americans are currently not covered by medicaid despite their poverty? More than half if I remember correctly. Think about everyone it will benefit.

 

I mainly used Hubbalou's quote as an excuse to bring out our medicare debt, I'll admit. However, you wouldn't be saying that if you were on medicaid. My brother is on it and its quite shit. When he did finally get a part time job for about 20 hours a week (which doesn't provide insurance), he was about to be cut off which is quite ridiculous. It seemed as though Medicaid didn't want my brother to work at all. Not to mention that the benefits are practically nothing. The states don't have the money so they are giving all medicaid members very little benefits... and with the increasing amount of members the benefits keep going down. So to put everyone on that system could be catastrophic as the state wouldn't be able to pay for it (which goes into a values vs. rationality thing).

 

So, what exactly are you saying? That your healthcare system is eating too much money as it is? This only means that your overall spending is flying towards a bull's ass (like we would say here), healthcare is not the right place to cut spending! Greece is looking at the possibility of a bankruptcy as early as next year, but I don't see them slicing money out of healthcare.

 

This is a values vs logic question. If we let ourselves become bankrupt then our money will become worthless and we won't have healthcare but if we do cut healthcare we're going to screw people over. The problem is with medicare that if we don't do something our country could face another great depression if not our own version of the Weimer Republic (without the paying for everyone's war debts thing). If that happens , healthcare could be the least of our problems.

 

So I could've just jumped over your posts basically? If you were not going to make an opinion, then why did you throw in the remark about people too lazy to find jobs? Surely that wasn't a fact that needed re-stating when many of us have already said why that isn't a valid argument at all?

I was merely just trying to give information that people may not know. Obviously, this backfired.

[travel_hymn]

NHS sucks, if my Dad listened to them, he would have been dead by now.

 

Healthcare in the UK needs improvement.

 

Let's all go to Sweden.

[Wildman]

This is the reason why I don't like the Democratic point of view on things. I honestly think this was a mistake. Sure it helps some people, but it will fuck some other people over in the long-run. Shit like this is the biggest problem our economy faces. But if this bill were to come under a good republican perspective, chances are that it will fail. The republican view would read over this the failure would have resulted in something better, we're in a recession and losing billions of more dollars isn't going to help us much, we're already in debt by a lot and in my opinion, we should start paying that back instead of working on a healthcare bill with obvious flaws.

 

Anyway, this is all I gotta say, and note that through out most of it, I was speaking out of my ass.

[hubabalou]

Good. Are you also aware that the system you're describing is pretty much impossible in practice, and the current system that is coming to effect is a sacrifice that you're going to have to make for the better of your country as a whole?

 

Soz, had some problems with my connection, so it took me a while...

 

Yes, I'm well aware that it's practically impossible. That's why I said IF it was possible...

[kwik-silva]

Before I start I haven't read any of the actual bill, so don't kill me

 

I'm just saying that because of this particular bill, my family (and most of middle class America) is being royally screwed.

 

I understand Faith that this bill isn't the greatest for you, and it may fuck you over, but you still get some cover out of this right? So isn't it better that everybody has some cover rather than nobody being allowed any? I really feel for your situation with your brother though. It must be horrible, and I'd be way more hacked off than you're appearing if it was me.

 

but my question is.... if this is so important why must we wait 3 or 4 years for this to go in action?

whens the next election again? oh yeah 2012..... sketchy

 

Because it's going to take that long for everybody to agree on the details And to get a system up with it

 

NHS sucks, if my Dad listened to them, he would have been dead by now.

 

Healthcare in the UK needs improvement.

 

Let's all go to Sweden.

 

In my eyes it's better than no system. Obviously not the best, and I think it's saved more people than it's 'killed'

 

This is the reason why I don't like the Democratic point of view on things. I honestly think this was a mistake. Sure it helps some people, but it will fuck some other people over in the long-run. .

 

That's the same as with any bill. The difference is that this will be way more beneficial than most.

[Catie]

Because it's going to take that long for everybody to agree on the details And to get a system up with it

 

well wouldn't the details have to be worked out before being signed and passed? if not then thats pretty stupid. you have to work out details and agreements before passing something.

 

 

 

but then again i have no idea what im talking about. lol

 

which is terrible because i should know alot about it because my uncle was in the senate

[Andrew]

The details have probably all been ironed out already.

 

How many millions of people will be getting health care cause of this bill? That's probably why it's going to take so long. Lots of planning will be required to actually be able to put it into practice properly.

[watchthesky]

like i mentioned before everybody starts somewhere

do you think europe/canada switched to universal healthcare overnight and everybody was all happy dooda about it?

no, they probably went through bills just like this to make it work

there's still plenty of work to be done and believe me it will be worth it once you get a proper system running

and apparently it's not even taking effect for another three/four years so if people are upset with coverage they'll be left with you have time to sort it out

it's not the end of the world, really

[kwik-silva]

Isn't planning and details the same thing?

[watchthesky]

The details have probably all been ironed out already.

 

How many millions of people will be getting health care cause of this bill? That's probably why it's going to take so long. Lots of planning will be required to actually be able to put it into practice properly.

i've heard like around 45 million americans are uninsured and a lot who are insured have really shitty coverage

so it will end up helping a lot of people

[Catie]

^ eh kinda i guess lol.

 

 

 

and yeah that makes sense kayla and andrew.

 

for the record im not against it. nor am i for it.

i really dont know much about it

[Andrew]

Isn't planning and details the same thing?

 

Well "details" sounds like what is going to go in the bill. Where as "planning" is them actually planning how they are going to carry out giving the health care. People will need to be employed, letters will need to be sent to people, money assigned, etc

[SalsaC]

The senate bill is not universal healthcare. That was what I was getting at. Its only supposed to cover about 97% of the population. There is no public option and it provides subsidizes for people to get private insurance. Then there is tort reform (which is definitely needed), covering for pre-existing conditions etc. which is the stuff that is more common across the world. The basis of the bill , however, is not Universal Healthcare as that type of system would never get passed by the senate as the senate is more moderate than the House. Its overall somewhat in the middle between current American system and the European/Canadian system but that could change with the fixes they are going to try to pass with reconciliation.

Yep, I know it's not the same. I haven't read up on the reconciliation yet, though...

 

I mainly used Hubbalou's quote as an excuse to bring out our medicare debt, I'll admit. However, you wouldn't be saying that if you were on medicaid. My brother is on it and its quite shit. When he did finally get a part time job for about 20 hours a week (which doesn't provide insurance), he was about to be cut off which is quite ridiculous. It seemed as though Medicaid didn't want my brother to work at all. Not to mention that the benefits are practically nothing. The states don't have the money so they are giving all medicaid members very little benefits... and with the increasing amount of members the benefits keep going down. So to put everyone on that system could be catastrophic as the state wouldn't be able to pay for it (which goes into a values vs. rationality thing).

True, I have no idea how shit medicaid actually is, I'm not defending THAT at all. I would still be saying the same about how your old system is not exactly cutting edge. The money IS a question mark, and I think the democrats have thought of that as well. If anything, this should force them to review OTHER parts of their budget, because I still don't think this is the right part to cut down.

 

 

 

This is a values vs logic question. If we let ourselves become bankrupt then our money will become worthless and we won't have healthcare but if we do cut healthcare we're going to screw people over. The problem is with medicare that if we don't do something our country could face another great depression if not our own version of the Weimer Republic (without the paying for everyone's war debts thing). If that happens , healthcare could be the least of our problems.

Indeed, the work is not done yet. However, I'm willing to let this part in the hands of the people preparing the law, since I'm sure they know something I don't.

 

 

I was merely just trying to give information that people may not know. Obviously, this backfired.

Don't think it backfired! It was actually interesting to see USA's debt in real time. I may be arguing against you but that doesn't mean I want to kill you.

 

Yes, I'm well aware that it's practically impossible. That's why I said IF it was possible...

Then we're done. I didn't remember that I had scheduled a guitar student for today until he was at my door so I had to slip out again...

[travel_hymn]

In my eyes it's better than no system. Obviously not the best, and I think it's saved more people than it's 'killed'

 

 

Wow, you don't get it. You should have not said anything.

 

Never mind.

[Andrew]

To lighten the mood...

 

[SalsaC]

Impressive! The child doesn't look like he wants it, though.

[travel_hymn]

...He?

[watchthesky]

hahahahahaha

[SalsaC]

...He?

I refer to asexual people as "he".

[travel_hymn]

I refer to asexual people as "he".

 

LOL okay.

[kwik-silva]

Wow, you don't get it. You should have not said anything.

 

Never mind.

 

Fuck off I wasn't expecting a joke

[SalsaC]

Or maybe I was thinking more about the Rammstein song in the background

[travel_hymn]

Fuck off I wasn't expecting a joke

Why the heck do you use fuck off so lightly and think it's okay? Stop being so rude.

 

Jesus.

[kwik-silva]

Why the heck do you use fuck off so lightly and think it's okay? Stop being so rude.

 

Jesus.

 

Why do you blaspheme so lightly?

[Andrew]

Lara, just call him a cunt (a)