lilley_1 Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 I'm reading up on it right now and from what I can see there are plenty of pros and cons. The biggest con I can see that could possibly make Americans really pissed is the stuff like Medicaid and whatnot. People who can "afford" healthcare end up paying for the people that cant. And, I really don't know how to say this without sounding exceptionally stuck up, but a lot of people on Medicaid are people who are simply too lazy to find jobs. So people that are working and sacrificing their time and efforts are paying for people to have healthcare even though they aren't bothering to help themselves. Most people that pay for medicaid don't receive any benefits of it. That and the fact that Medicad and Medicare are going to go bankrupt within 40 years. Let me put it this way : http://usdebtclock.org. There is 75 trillion dollars in medicare liability alone .. and thats just for healthcare for seniors. Not to mention that medicaid is growing at a faster rate than medicare now. Still should mention that this bill is not the same as European Healthcare system (and therefore don't make your arguments based on your own system). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubabalou Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 That and the fact that Medicad and Medicare are going to go bankrupt within 40 years. Let me put it this way : http://usdebtclock.org. There is 75 trillion dollars in medicare liability alone .. and thats just for healthcare for seniors. Not to mention that medicaid is growing at a faster rate than medicare now. Still should mention that this bill is not the same as European Healthcare system (and therefore don't make your arguments based on your own system). THANK YOU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchthesky Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 so..just because we're not americans we can't have an opinion about it? oh dear lord, the government wants to make sure its citizens actually have health coverage, how dare they you might not like like the idea now but like many people have mentioned it'll be beneficial in the long run and everyone has to start somewhere every other industrialised country in the world has done it, so can you still surprised it's taken this long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anavi Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 so..just because we're not americans we can't have an opinion about it?oh dear lord, the government wants to make sure its citizens actually have health coverage, how dare they you might not like like the idea now but like many people have mentioned it'll be beneficial in the long run and everyone has to start somewhere every other industrialised country in the world has done it, so can you still surprised it's taken this long this and i cant belive what i hear..you actually support that some ppl shouldnt have haealtcare ? and we aren't making assumptisons of your healtcare sistem should work, we r just pointing to the fact that most of the countries in the world has this and it is not that bad at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catie Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 i thought it started in 2013.... well thats what my teacher told me but he prob doesnt know. well regardless we'll all be dead anyway. the end of the world is soon. lmao jk jk but tbh i dont know much about it so i cant really say. and my coverage will prob be the same or better since my mom works at a hospital Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
777 Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Nooooooooothing is ever free. Not even air! but if this helps for the benefit thats easily seen on the surface then so be it. make usa happy Obama! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_hymn Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 i thought it started in 2013.... well thats what my teacher told me but he prob doesnt know. No, he does know. It doesn't get into full effect until 2013/2014, somewhere around there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchthesky Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 if it's not even really happening for like three/four years what's the big deal about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_hymn Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 if it's not even really happening for like three/four years what's the big deal about it? welcome to planet Earth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilley_1 Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 so..just because we're not americans we can't have an opinion about it?oh dear lord, the government wants to make sure its citizens actually have health coverage, how dare they you might not like like the idea now but like many people have mentioned it'll be beneficial in the long run and everyone has to start somewhere every other industrialised country in the world has done it, so can you still surprised it's taken this long You're putting words into my mouth. I stated that this is not the same system as Europe and therefore one should look at whats in this particular bill before making a comment on it. I also didn't give my opinion on the bill but just information about the amount of debt entitlements have cost the US which are just pure raw numbers (I may have stereotyped people who take Medicaid a little but I never meant that to be used as an identifier of my opinion on the entire healthcare reform). Personally I'm not gonna make an opinion until all the reconciliation stuff is passed and I know whats actually going to be in and out of the bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchthesky Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 i wasn't speaking to you directly, i meant in general Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubabalou Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 and i cant belive what i hear..you actually support that some ppl shouldnt have haealtcare ? I'm by no means saying I don't think everyone should have access to health care. I just don't think its right to take away health care benefits from people who already have coverage in order for that to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalsaC Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 this is not the same system as Europe and therefore one should look at whats in this particular bill before making a comment on it. I will make an argument based on my own system, if the arguments you guys are making/I'm countering are based on stuff that is universal to all systems. It doesn't matter if the system is called medicare or iCare or iDont or if it is funded by taxes or robbing the rich or by illegal arms trades from the black budget. I have read up on the bill before posting in this thread, and I was actually surprised by this(and not in the pleasant way), but the arguments against the bill are about things that are found all over the world.That I've already said that the system can be abused, and so have a few others. It's common knowledge, because we are experiencing it every day. (Yes, I will make an argument based on my country's own system.) Do you really think that's a valid reason to forget the whole system? How many poor americans are currently not covered by medicaid despite their poverty? More than half if I remember correctly. Think about everyone it will benefit. and the fact that Medicad and Medicare are going to go bankrupt within 40 years. Let me put it this way : http://usdebtclock.org. There is 75 trillion dollars in medicare liability alone .. and thats just for healthcare for seniors. Not to mention that medicaid is growing at a faster rate than medicare now. So, what exactly are you saying? That your healthcare system is eating too much money as it is? This only means that your overall spending is flying towards a bull's ass (like we would say here), healthcare is not the right place to cut spending! Greece is looking at the possibility of a bankruptcy as early as next year, but I don't see them slicing money out of healthcare. I also didn't give my opinion on the bill but just information about the amount of debt entitlements have cost the US which are just pure raw numbers (I may have stereotyped people who take Medicaid a little but I never meant that to be used as an identifier of my opinion on the entire healthcare reform). Personally I'm not gonna make an opinion until all the reconciliation stuff is passed and I know whats actually going to be in and out of the bill. So I could've just jumped over your posts basically? If you were not going to make an opinion, then why did you throw in the remark about people too lazy to find jobs? Surely that wasn't a fact that needed re-stating when many of us have already said why that isn't a valid argument at all? I'm by no means saying I don't think everyone should have access to health care.I just don't think its right to take away health care benefits from people who already have coverage in order for that to happen. If it needs to be done, then sure it's right. This just requires you to think about other people besides yourself or your family. I can't believe this is so difficult as a concept. Holy shit, 63 guests in Off topic... hello world! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorgi Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I just don't think its right to take away health care benefits from people who already have coverage in order for that to happen. I completely get your point of view considering the situation you're in, but think... if you didn't already have coverage, would you still be so against this bill ? I think this reform as a whole will be a good thing, of course there will be some teething problems and of course people are going to fight against it and of course there'll be controversy and scandal surrounding this when it finally gets put into place until the sun goes down, that's just the way it works. But in 30 years time, say, when everyone's got used to the idea and it works and there's a new generation and what, they'll look back and be like "damn them suckers in the noughties, they got a shitass decade name and shitass healthcare!". ...or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I'm by no means saying I don't think everyone should have access to health care. I just don't think its right to take away health care benefits from people who already have coverage in order for that to happen. Hang on, if I'm understanding this properly. Before this healthcare bill happened you had to go to a health insurance company and pay them a monthly/yearly fee right? Now the government is offering "free healthcare" that will give "full cover"? Surely the new healthcare bill is giving you full cover at a cheaper cost? (Or should be so it is competitive against the insurance companies). And to make a comparison to the NHS in the UK I could have private health care if I wanted but it would cost me more money because I'm paying for "free health care" through taxes that come out of my wages that give me full cover, but then I would also be paying a monthly/yearly fee to have private health care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anavi Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I'm by no means saying I don't think everyone should have access to health care. I just don't think its right to take away health care benefits from people who already have coverage in order for that to happen. It wasn't really directed specificly to you Hang on, if I'm understanding this properly. Before this healthcare bill happened you had to go to a health insurance company and pay them a monthly/yearly fee right? I would like to hear answer to this one too. Pekka made some really good arguments which i am to lazy to quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubabalou Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Hang on, if I'm understanding this properly. Before this healthcare bill happened you had to go to a health insurance company and pay them a monthly/yearly fee right? Now the government is offering "free healthcare" that will give "full cover"? Surely the new healthcare bill is giving you full cover at a cheaper cost? (Or should be so it is competitive against the insurance companies). And to make a comparison to the NHS in the UK I could have private health care if I wanted but it would cost me more money because I'm paying for "free health care" through taxes that come out of my wages that give me full cover, but then I would also be paying a monthly/yearly fee to have private health care. Actually no. This "free healthcare" is only allowing my family (and I'm sure plenty others) half the cover they had before. So if we want to have the same coverage, we have to pay the "free healthcare" taxes along with additional private healthcare for the things that it doesn't cover. For instance, my brother's depression medicine is going to be close to double the price it is now because of this bill. Medicine that he needs to function properly. Honestly guys, you're making me sound like I'm a complete insolent bitch because I don't agree with some of this and it's kind of ridiculous. I think that everyone should have the chance to have healthcare, and I think that the government is right in trying to make it available for everyone, but at the same time, by doing so they're screwing a lot of people over. I know you guys don't see that because you've had this kind of system forever and you don't really see the flaws in it from the standpoint that I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorgi Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Honestly guys, you're making me sound like I'm a complete insolent bitch because I don't agree with some of this and it's kind of ridiculous. Naw dude not trying to make you look or sound insolent or bitchy in the slightest - this is the nature of debate eh, things get chucked around and no one agrees. I know you guys don't see that because you've had this kind of system forever and you don't really see the flaws in it from the standpoint that I have. in the same sense that you don't have the standpoint we have; it will be beneficial overall, it really will be. and i know it sucks at this point in time for you - your brother's medicine for example - but if it's not getting implemented until 2013 (right?) then get campaigning and get it changed, you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicjunkie88 Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I will make an argument based on my own system, if the arguments you guys are making/I'm countering are based on stuff that is universal to all systems. It doesn't matter if the system is called medicare or iCare or iDont or if it is funded by taxes or robbing the rich or by illegal arms trades from the black budget. I have read up on the bill before posting in this thread, and I was actually surprised by this(and not in the pleasant way), but the arguments against the bill are about things that are found all over the world. I've already said that the system can be abused, and so have a few others. It's common knowledge, because we are experiencing it every day. (Yes, I will make an argument based on my country's own system.) Do you really think that's a valid reason to forget the whole system? How many poor americans are currently not covered by medicaid despite their poverty? More than half if I remember correctly. Think about everyone it will benefit. So, what exactly are you saying? That your healthcare system is eating too much money as it is? This only means that your overall spending is flying towards a bull's ass (like we would say here), healthcare is not the right place to cut spending! Greece is looking at the possibility of a bankruptcy as early as next year, but I don't see them slicing money out of healthcare. So I could've just jumped over your posts basically? If you were not going to make an opinion, then why did you throw in the remark about people too lazy to find jobs? Surely that wasn't a fact that needed re-stating when many of us have already said why that isn't a valid argument at all? If it needs to be done, then sure it's right. This just requires you to think about other people besides yourself or your family. I can't believe this is so difficult as a concept. Holy shit, 63 guests in Off topic... hello world! All of this! Obviously people will have to adjust to it. but as stated before, think of the millions of people in poverty that will benefit from this. I know it's not the exact same bill as the one we have in Europe/Canada/wherever ....but, the general idea is pretty much the same. In time you guys will get used to it. it's the same in every country when a new bill is brought in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalsaC Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Actually no. This "free healthcare" is only allowing my family (and I'm sure plenty others) half the cover they had before. So if we want to have the same coverage, we have to pay the "free healthcare" taxes along with additional private healthcare for the things that it doesn't cover. For instance, my brother's depression medicine is going to be close to double the price it is now because of this bill. Medicine that he needs to function properly. I think that everyone should have the chance to have healthcare, and I think that the government is right in trying to make it available for everyone, but at the same time, by doing so they're screwing a lot of people over. I know you guys don't see that because you've had this kind of system forever and you don't really see the flaws in it from the standpoint that I have. Now I'm going to have to ask you: would you rather have the old system back? Because now it seems like you are ignoring the problems that the old system had and the thousands of people that got fucked over by it. I don't think that the problems you are now facing aren't real, for the record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubabalou Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 No, I'm not saying the old system is what we need either. If you read what I said, you would understand that. I think that we need to make healthcare available to everyone... I don't know how many times I have to say that. Apparently a lot. Yes, this new bill will be beneficial to a lot of people, and I'm more than happy that people who haven't been able to get healthcare will be able to have it. Its not like I'm a soulless, calloused person who thinks the world revolves around me and only my family deserves healthcare. Thats not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that because of this particular bill, my family (and most of middle class America) is being royally screwed. If there was a way to combined this bill that benefits the lower class and those that cant afford healthcare, but still allows people who already have healthcare benefits the same benefits they have now, I would have absolutely no problem whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Actually no. This "free healthcare" is only allowing my family (and I'm sure plenty others) half the cover they had before. So if we want to have the same coverage, we have to pay the "free healthcare" taxes along with additional private healthcare for the things that it doesn't cover. For instance, my brother's depression medicine is going to be close to double the price it is now because of this bill. Medicine that he needs to function properly. Honestly guys, you're making me sound like I'm a complete insolent bitch because I don't agree with some of this and it's kind of ridiculous. I think that everyone should have the chance to have healthcare, and I think that the government is right in trying to make it available for everyone, but at the same time, by doing so they're screwing a lot of people over. I know you guys don't see that because you've had this kind of system forever and you don't really see the flaws in it from the standpoint that I have. To be honest I was just trying to understand it better from your point of view. I figured the health care bill thing should be cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubabalou Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 To be honest I was just trying to understand it better from your point of view. I figured the health care bill thing should be cheaper. Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people think, but its only really cheaper for the people who don't have coverage already. I'm honestly sorry if I've been coming off as really harsh in this thread, but this bill is going to dramatically effect my family, and not in a good way so it's not something I'm particularly thrilled about. My parents are already sacrificing so much that this whole thing is going to make our living situation a lot harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalsaC Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 No, I'm not saying the old system is what we need either. If you read what I said, you would understand that. I think that we need to make healthcare available to everyone... I don't know how many times I have to say that. Apparently a lot. Yes, this new bill will be beneficial to a lot of people, and I'm more than happy that people who haven't been able to get healthcare will be able to have it. Its not like I'm a soulless, calloused person who thinks the world revolves around me and only my family deserves healthcare. Thats not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that because of this particular bill, my family (and most of middle class America) is being royally screwed. If there was a way to combined this bill that benefits the lower class and those that cant afford healthcare, but still allows people who already have healthcare benefits the same benefits they have now, I would have absolutely no problem whatsoever. Good. Are you also aware that the system you're describing is pretty much impossible in practice, and the current system that is coming to effect is a sacrifice that you're going to have to make for the better of your country as a whole? Soz, had some problems with my connection, so it took me a while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catie Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 sooo idk if anyone said it because i havnt read this lol but my question is.... if this is so important why must we wait 3 or 4 years for this to go in action? whens the next election again? oh yeah 2012..... sketchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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